Monday, July 16, 2012

The trader fleet

I already wrote a post seeking how a trader/industrialist can meaningfully participate in a nullsec alliance. The first problem to solve is opportunity cost: the time spent in the battle cost more in profit than the ship you fly. The second is the "fighter" culture. If you do what you are best in and support your alliance with enough ISK to keep a dozen others in ships, you are still below the last Rifter "hero", since you are a "slave". Your ideas will have no weight in decision making.

My first idea is simply bringing stronger, more expensive ships than the crowd to offset both. However CCP did good work making subcap PvP casual-friendly, a good ship can be fit from 100M, after that the power increase versus ISK spent is hardly diminished. 2 100M subcaps will win over a 5B one. Increasing ship power is still better than nothing. However there are ships that exist naturally to convert ISK into power: the supercaps. These aren't just "pimped ships". Their DPS, tank and immunity to EWAR makes them extremely strong. On the top of unmatched DPS and tank, the supercarriers have remote ECM burst, disabling whole fleets while titans have unique, unmatched fleet bonuses and the ability to bridge in whole fleets.

My aim isn't just to be in null as Scmi#53. It is to participate in shaping it. I'm not alone, many traders/industrialists sit on huge amount of money and maybe with boredom. So here is my idea: a trader/industrialist corp where everyone will fly a supercap.

The technical part is easy, in less than half year of playing, starting as a clueless newbie, knowing nobody, acting all alone, I made enough ISK to buy a titan. However supercaps need sov to build and can only be done in a powerblock. Trying to build a supercap in some lolalliance that is left alive only to provide roaming fun to their neighbors is a bad idea.

The creation part is easy too: I announce the formation of the corp in the blog and maybe on EVE-O, collect traders/industrialist for the cause. They can join even if they see low chance of success. After all a clean account is pocket change to us and worst case we can sell the pilots as supercap sitters on the bazaar.

The logistics part isn't hard either: we'd need sov somewhere in the hinterlands, way behind the front line. This doesn't mean we have to own the sov, we just have to be able to place building facilities. We'd cynojam everything in 5 jumps and place enough carriers and dreads to every system that all our members can fly capitals if some enemy roam shows up. Then we happily start building our little supercaps and some time later the powerblock has as many new supercaps as many members we have (with replacement ships of course).

The hard part is politics. Imagine that I have the corp with 50-100 people who has the wallet (or the proper attitude that will get them in no time) for supercaps. Now we must negotiate our way in a powerblock. Strangely we don't take much risk by joining. The worst thing that can happen to us is they were just after lols and blow up the crafting facilities. So what? Everyone lost a few dozen B but we have the knowledge and enough assets in NPC to instantly start over in the enemy powerblock, who could now be 100% sure that we won't double-cross them. The accepting powerblock will risk that we won't be loyal to them and when they plan a supercap battle, we won't show up or even shoot them in the back for money. Also, independence means power. Since we don't live on alliance moongoo, but build everything from our own money, we have the ability to disagree. Even if it doesn't mean disloyalty or betrayal, a loose cannon can be annoying too. Imagine that we'd start trashing good fights by hotdropping into the enemy blop a dozen of supers (we won't, as "pwning" is not our source of fun, but why would you believe it, you don't know us).

I announced my plan to fly a titan almost 3 months ago. Since then I'm thinking how could I be trusted by a powerblock. The answer is simple: I cannot be. I'm financially independent, I'm not bound by feelings of loyalty, I'm not bound by out-of-game reasons (like being on SA, Reddit, being a Russian, knowing anyone IRL). I'd be a loose cannon at best, traitor at worst.

While you can't trust any individual, you can pretty much trust in systems and groups. While Joe the cop can be corrupt, and many are, "the Police" does its work OK. While Jack the firefighter can be a coward, and some are, "the firefighters" do well. While individual politicians are usually bastards, the government operates, due to checks and balances.

While I can never be trusted by any powerblock, a properly designed trader/industrialist supercap corp can be. While individual pilots can and probably will betray the powerblock accepting us, "the corp" won't. The method would be simple: the accepting powerblock would send their own wannabe-supercap pilots to us. They can trust these long-term members (as far as you can trust anyone). Some of them will come openly, some of them will be covert. I cannot stop or even identify the alt of some leader (he can trust himself) who arrives with "hi, I've been reading your blog and want to try out EVE". These members will be the link between "us" (traders/industrialist, coming from highsec or out-of-game) and the powerblock. When they have their own supercap, they can stay and keep "spying" or return to their home, replaced by a new supercap-wannabe. The point is what we give them cannot be taken away from them: knowledge. Even if everything would go wrong, the alliance would now have lot of pilots capable of making supercap money on their own.

What stops the enemy from planting similar spies? Nothing. However they can only report what he sees and that's the number of supers in the corp. He can't count the other supers of the powerblock. Also, there are well known doctrines to handle spies: only leaders know the jump position, fleet members not until arrived. I will blog about trading tips, how we make ISK, how does supercap construction happens, and so on, but I doubt if "the enemy" doesn't know already that zydrine sells higher than tritanium. Also, a spy with a supercap is someone who has something to lose. He isn't a throwaway pilot anymore so he can easily choose that his loyalty lies with his supercap and not with his former alliance.

I hope you see now why I waited joining null. No amount of Scimitar flying would help me knowing null powerblock politics or figure out the issue with trust. What I needed is the price of a titan in my wallet to prove without doubt that my methods are working, so the above idea isn't a daydream. I'd like to stress the size and importance of this income. In the last 30 days I made 50B. I'm sure that after having the proper capital, one can make 30B/month safely. It means that by just having 40 members, we can outdo all the Technetium moons of the Galaxy. With 100 members we could have larger income than any existing alliance.

If you want to participate in corp aimed to be a vital force of conquering the galaxy, riding the biggest ships of EVE, without channel spam, sexism and trolling, send me (Gevlon Goblin) an in-game mail. Please write if you would only join to CFC-HB or only to SoCo. If you don't play but want to join now, start a 14 days trial and send the mail from that account. Familiarize yourself with the UI and also start learning skills, make your first steps. Do not comment "I will join" on the blog, I don't believe you. Make at least the little effort of getting a trial account. You can discuss details of the plans here and the goblinworks channel. You can find me on the People and places feature, type in name, search, rightclick, send mail:
I will collect people and start negotiating with the diplomats of alliances that are cornerstones of powerblocks. Pets and renters do not have the power to make such decisions.

If you'd laugh "newbies trying to fly supers, trying to negotiate powerblocks?", remember how the Goonswarm started. When they were in a bunch of Rifters, they were laughed at. I don't hear the laughter from Delve now. They had nothing but the will to destroy the status quo. We have the will to be dirty rich and know (in-game) economics.

I'd like to emphasize that the No1 criteria of choosing a side is the number of wannabe supercap pilots coming from them openly (pilots identified "ours" by their leadership count here). The more they are, the stronger the bond between us and them will be, the more reasons for both sides to trust each other and also more people who can teach us the ways of the alliance. Before the supers are ready we'll join to subcap blops to learn fleet know-how together. So if you are in a powerblock, want a supercap for yourself, want to learn how to make enough ISK to build your own supercap, send me a letter with "CFC-HB only" or "SoCo only" and convince your alliance mates to do the same. Post the link on alliance boards, agitate! Introduce me to your alliance diplomat! Since I offer you no money but the knowledge to earn your own, there are no limits. Everyone who is ready to learn trading and industry will fly his self-made supercap. If you hesitate, if you are not sure if it works, you are right. No guarantees. But if we fail spectacularly, you just wasted some B and learned how to make lot more. But what if we succeed? Wouldn't that be the true butterfly effect?


Finally, I must tell how this fits into my philosophy post: There won't just be awful lot of supercaps. There will be pilots who are capable to replace their ships, making them ready to deploy them even if there is a high chance of ship loss. The powerblock with such pilots will conquer the galaxy, forming the One Empire.

It must be formed. Only after the nullsec is safely owned can we do our sacred duty: go to high, find the morons and slackers and gank them all! No more structure shooting, no more blobs, just roams doing the right thing: delivering punishment for stupidity and laziness. Hulkageddon, Burn Jita and the rest had little effect because the thousands participating were nothing compared the hundred thousands of M&S and the socials supporting them. The united power of null will be needed to make difference. Maybe even that will be insufficient. Idiocy is a formidable enemy. Uniting null isn't "game over", it's the beginning of the good fight: the crusade against idiocy! Where "the power of reason doesn’t actually lift the population out of the muck, because they’re too busy AFK mining or undocking Kestrels full of PLEXes", the legion of gankers shall make difference. I think the best would be for the One Empire to wardec every single corp outside of itself except EVE-Uni and RvB (as they are the places where the idiots could learn something useful and become not idiots). Morons and slackers, by fire you will be purged! Please note that this is why the powerblock leadership can be sure that I won't usurp them with a couple hundred of supercaps behind my back. My motivation is to fight morons and slackers, I did that years before I played EVE, so you can be sure that I won't risk it for personal power.

Note to worried PvP-ers: the "good fights" will not disappear because of the One Empire, as it is unable (and probably unwilling) to police NPC null and lowsec. Pirates can forever exist there, roam null seeking for busy "nullbears". One can always fight worthy opponents either as one of the pirates or as their hunter.

Note to really idiot trolls (I'm bored of deleting them in dozens): I'm organizing a supercap building and not a supercap flying corp. The flying part will be organized by the existing supercap fleets of the powerblock. I'm not trying to FC a supercap battle.


Saturday morning report: 98.5B (2B spent on main accounts, 1.3 spent on Logi/Carrier, 1.0 on Ragnarok, 1.0 on Rorqual, 0.9 on Nyx, 1.3 on Avatar, 2.6B received as gift).
Sunday morning report: 101.7B (2B spent on main accounts, 1.3 spent on Logi/Carrier, 1.0 on Ragnarok, 1.0 on Rorqual, 0.9 on Nyx, 1.3 on Avatar, 2.6B received as gift).
Monday morning report: 103.9B (2B spent on main accounts, 1.3 spent on Logi/Carrier, 1.0 on Ragnarok, 1.0 on Rorqual, 0.9 on Nyx, 1.3 on Avatar, 2.6B received as gift).

34 comments:

Setsune Rin said...

il just come at this point by point

first off:
you seems to miss the purpose (and use) of supercaps
they are the heavy dps you need to rape carrier/dreads, their drones have a lot of trouble hitting subcaps now that they can only field fighters and bombers

the remote ECM burst is usefull to temporarily break the remote tank on any given ship if the logi are blobbed or to interrupt the dps on your own ship, it however only has a 20km radius and 5 minute cooldown before i can be deployed again
making it a usefull but circumstantial ability

hotdropping into 'gudfites' will do nothing but piss of your allies for probably fucking up their killboard beyond oblivion because your going to die in many fires or force them to field more subcaps to pull your ass out of the fire and accomplish the same fucked up killboard result

your going to be hard pressed to find an alliance willing to give up their killboard (and by extent their status to peers) for the non-existant chance of the one-empire (i'd have thought you would drop that at some point by now)
since most people ignore high sec bears

and that titan fit you seem to have removed already....oh dear
im not even going to begin since you still seem to think titans are effective fleet boosters

but titan roles:
sub cap battle?
no titans involved, apart from maybe a bridge

mid-cap battle? might get involved, but the amount of rape that gets fielded in those cases makes this titan fit totally irrelivant as their tank makes them near invulnerable

pure super cap battles is the same as above


you seem to be obsessed with the isk aspect of the deal, most pilots really dont give a crap about that
its about the fight itself, go set up a wormhole corp and payroll roaming gang from in there if you want something to burn your excess isk in

PL is already doing what you seem to be hinting at, throwing supercap fleets around to fuck with people
try and get some experience with them if they'll have you.

Gevlon said...

@setsune: Don't be stupid please.

I'm not thinking that supercaps shall be fielded all alone, despite supercarriers with fighters can eat up battleships pretty easily.

However a supercap fleet can make an even minor subcap fleet undefeatable:

Imagine a simple alpha maelstrom fleet. Now instead of logis, imagine a bunch of triage carriers. Due to the supers on the field, the enemy can't field dreads to counter the carriers or drop their own triages to support their own ships. Result: the maelstroms eat up the enemy subcap fleet with no problems.

Finally a supercap fleet can destroy enemy sov structures while their subcaps keep enemy subcaps busy (as they are practically immune to subcap fire and they can destroy dreads). The enemy runs out of sov, moongoo, practically degraded to NPC-station based roamers.

Anonymous said...

"However a supercap fleet can make an even minor subcap fleet undefeatable"

that's like saying "a tactical nuclear strike will make the job for our conventional forces so much easier"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpRc5aDZw6k&t=0m26s

Setsune RIn said...

@ gevlon

super =/= triage, you cant fly bombers in triage
and you will probably get smartbombed to oblivion if you try killing the subcaps

then they counter drop supers, or batphone PL since they get wet for this sorta stuff (aka killing the silly blogger)

you might make sov grinding a bit less tedious by adding the one or two supers your gona be able to field
but thats nothing a block of that magnitude cant field already, hence your plan is irrelivant once again

your plan doesnt account for what benefits your going to be able to bring over the size of block you require
they dont need you, and there is good reason supers arent being fielded in mael fleets to begin with

Setsune said...

oh btw: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/wmpjv/greedy_goblin_the_trader_fleet_also_the_worlds/

bogartnumberone said...

I'm having trouble understanding your perspective here.

From what I can tell, either:

(1) You want to get into PvP. I don't think that this the case but if it is, you would be better off flying sub-caps because they're more fun to fly.

(2) You want to make a big difference in null and you aren't really that interested in the PvP itself. In this case, would you not be better off just hiring a group of people who already have a lot of PvP experience?


Also: "Don't be stupid please." is not how civilized people address criticism.

evemonkey said...

Your initial premise is incorrect. Serious industrialists are highly valued. In particular in my alliance they are a very organised bunch of people which are fully supported by the alliance in general. They are still expected to be able to participate in combat when there home region defence is at stake, but the rest of the time, they log into eve and mine and build and move things for the alliance.

regarding your comment in response to setsune: triage carriers cannot move while in triage. you will be deploying a cap fleet and then holding them still for the period of the triage. alpha maelstroms aren't designed for close up combat but because in this scenario they cannot move, you'll have a drake fleet or even an armor hac fleet on you in minutes to chew up all your precious subcaps.... Please try to refrain from strategizing about these sorts of things without some experience.

evemonkey said...

Further thought: if you're starting this corporation - I'd highly recommend you use the foothold of Providence. Negotiate with CVA for a corner of providence, build your resources, infrastructure and membership, and then move out into the world.

if you're not up for NRDS policy, then you can try an NPC region first. you're free, don't have to pay rent and still have all the benefits of nullsec. Syndicate is particularly good for this because of the little groups of systems protected by good bottlenecks.

Another alternative (and how I got my leg up into nullsec) is to try the solitude region - it's high sec surrounded by a moat of lowsec, but with syndicate very nearby.

Gevlon said...

@Bogartnumberone: why would I be interested in PvP itself. I'm interested in winning.

@Evemonkey: NPC null is good place to hide some lolalliance. I don't want to form lolalliance#215. Leading lolalliance #215 isn't more interesting than flying Drake#5421.

My aim is to participate in winning the game and then bring the fight to the M&S. I neither want, nor have any chance to lead The One Empire. What I'm doing is offering my industrial knowledge to an existing powerblock who have the FC and subcap background to win the game.

Anonymous said...

@evemonkey Providence is a terrible place for CSAAs - way too unstable and not entirely unlikely that CFC+HB might stomp CVA because of "lolRP" if they get bored of -A-.

I would suggest joining IRC (which gevlon won't like because they're pets - but they'll probably take him) or renting from SOLAR.

Trying to get space from the CFC+HB will only get him scammed or laughed out of the door.

Gevlon said...

Some clarification because I have to delete lot of idiocy that replies to things I did NOT say (therefore no point allowing them to exist):

- I don't want to build supercaps outside of a powerblock and join with them later. I want to build them inside the powerblock, for the powerblock, in their sov, with them.
- I don't ask for any kind of political position (nor accept any if offered). I don't want to be the new Mittani. I can't care less who leads the Empire as long as it exists.
- I don't even want to "lead" my own corporation, and actually I don't even insist on having a corporation, though it would be effective if I could invite good traders and kick those who slack behind and just lol around without any chance to finish their own super. Other than that, I can't care less about the formal frame.
- I won't have any authority over the supers except the ones I fly myself. The very point is that the owners build their own supers using the knowledge the traders can offer. How they will use it depend on them (and the powerblock where they willingly join).
- I/we won't pay a single ISK for joining. We aren't asking a favor, nor rent place for personal carebearing. What the alliance will get is new supercaps and pilots who fly them in the alliance fleet. If that is not good enough for the alliance, no deal.

Setsune Rin said...

did you consider that the 'idiocy' you claim gets posted is actually all perfectly logical

only you have 0 experience with fleet ops, null sec, sov mechanics, tactics, politics/diplomacy, gudfites, dropping caps.

and you simply cant grasp the concept that your going to get torn a new one/laughed at and rejected if you'd try this?

your assumption that a null sec alliance worth their chops would even want a maverick super pilot is beyond lunacy.

i mean...your even putting off the inevitable by training for supers instead of just buying a character that can fly one right now and try to prove us wrong.
for money? so you dont have to pay for the extra skills?

so no, dont expect to be taken seriously.

Anonymous said...

"- I/we won't pay a single ISK for joining. We aren't asking a favor, nor rent place for personal carebearing. What the alliance will get is new supercaps and pilots who fly them in the alliance fleet. If that is not good enough for the alliance, no deal."

I remember reading that you want to buy space (something about paying the host alliance for lost ratting space?) but with the number of edits these blog posts go through it's hard to say what you did or didn't write...

In the best case (which won't happen as almost nobody will send you an evemail, didn't you learn from the "voice of high-sec" fiasco?) you will have a corp made up of one wealthy guy with no 0.0 experience, a couple of poor high-sec carebears, some obvious alts (who knows whom they might be working for?) and a lot of fancy promises.

What's your selling point?

"All these 50k SP alts will be supercapital pilots in 18 months"?
nobody is going to believe that and the only answer can be "come back once they actually have the skills and experience to fly supercaps"

"I can teach your pilots how to get rich"?
I doubt that would work out well (they won't listen and blame you for their failures nonetheless), poaching pilots from other corporations in the alliance would be a big NO in most places and most alliances have some very rich members that could do the same job if there was any demand for it (but people are not poor because they are uninformed, they are poor because they don't want to invest effort into getting rich).

"I will build supercapitals"
that one might work (if you already have the BPOs and operating capital in place when you approach the alliance) but naive supercap builders are also a great scam target (e.g. http://www.kugutsumen.com/content.php?254-The-Route-to-Mount-Sociopathy-scamming-80bill-of-assets).

In short, I don't see what actual "bird in the hand" you are going to offer that would justify becoming a full member of any established alliance.

Chii said...

Despite all the criticism you've had, i do still hope you end up creating this corp, and do what you said you'd set out to do.

This is the essence of eve - even if it seems impossible, and perhaps even utterly stupid, the tiny chance of success is worth it. Plus it'd make a great story.

And what have you got to lose anyway, even if you didn't succeed? say nay to the naysayers, and do it.

Gevlon said...

@Setsune: idiocy is idiocy on its own. They (and you) don't post ANY counter - argument, just the usual "anything I write is wrong because I did not spend a year in Rifters and Drakes." I'm not saying that I can't be wrong. You just have no idea why am I wrong. Some have, see anonymous below you.

@Anonymous: the selling point is that I can actually make that money and unlike scammers and such I can teach others to make that money.

I'm not "poaching" other alliance members, I just borrow them and return them with their supercaps. Since it's a training/building factility, there is no reason for anyone to stay longer. We won't have fleets of our own or any other thing to make anyone not return to their original place (unless he is a permanent "spy" sent to make sure we are not doing anything nasty).

However you are right about identifying the only real risk (see, Setsune, people with thinking can be right): they slack, don't listen and stay as poor as they are. I'm already making a backup plan for that.

Ephemeron said...

If you do what you are best in and support your alliance with enough ISK to keep a dozen others in ships, you are still below the last Rifter "hero", since you are a "slave". Your ideas will have no weight in decision making.

What led you to the conclusion that this is the case in all major nullsec alliances?

Gevlon said...

@Ephemeron: have you somehow missed the amount of despise and abuse thrown towards the "carebears"? The PvP-ers consider themselves superior simply because their crosshair is not called "Guristas invader". I don't actually blame them, I understand why they do it, (http://greedygoblin.blogspot.hu/p/from-m-to-rational-play-to-win.html) but it's still there.

@Setsune: your quota for repeating the same crap has exceeded. Post next time when (or rather if) you have something worthy to say.

Ben said...

Gevlon, I may have missed this, but what's your logic for why the CFC can't be the "One Empire" you're looking for?

All I've seen is that the Goons aren't inclusive, based on their scamming nature and their selective recruitment. However, that just doesn't apply to the CFC as a whole, as you don't have to scam to be a member, and there are plenty of corporations and alliances with less restrictive recruiting.

Aureon said...

Will not work.
Perhaps with enough target painters around.. perhaps.

A tengu/loki/HAC/T3BC/Half the freaking navy would laugh at a supercap-only fleet, since you can't hit them in the slightest.

Gevlon said...

@Aureon: who the hell was talking about a supercap ONLY fleet?

Ephemeron said...

have you somehow missed the amount of despise and abuse thrown towards the "carebears"?

Everyone in EVE gets abuse and ridicule flowing their way, but that flow is generally aimed outwards, not inwards.

E.g.: Other Rifter pilots are dumb cannon fodder, but our Rifter pilots are brave self-sacrificing heroes. Other Drake pilots are mindless F1-pushing drones, but our Drake pilots are ruthless and disciplined warriors. Other FCs are self-righteous loud drunken assholes, but our FCs are badass guys who just tell it like it is and don't suffer fools gladly. You get the picture.

This good old human hypocrisy will serve you well here. When you see GoonWarrior31337 or TestPirate9001 badmouthing "worthless craven carebears", keep in mind that he's most likely talking about outsiders, not his own corp's traders (who are engaged in "market PvP" and thus deserve respect).

CFC said...

Honestly, I think your best bet is TEST. They do not have a large super capital fleet like AAA, Goons, PL, or Solar, nor do they have the isk to buy one. They've recently taken literally hundreds of systems in Delve/Querious/PB, and are looking to grow.

However, you're going to have to integrate both into the alliance itself and into their capital/super capital groups. Roaming around in supers is a real bad idea, and you would have to use them within the scope of the alliance. If you don't do these things, they will just kick you; they want SCs and Titans, but they don't want them more than a bad corp.

I'd contact Montolio/Rob3r in game to express your idea. But you'd have to stress JOINING the alliance; not using it to further your own goals.

Gevlon said...

@CFC: I would never like to roam in anything, I'd guess I made that clear long ago.

About the "stress JOINING the alliance; not using it to further your own goals." Do you think that any alliance leaders are idiots who'd fall for a "I just want to be one of you" speech?
Don't you think that a honest "I want X and I think it can be aligned by your goals, so we would both benefit if we'd act together" would go better?

I don't want to scam an alliance here, giving them the "I do what you say just take me" crap and start making demands when I already have the supers. I want the agreement be mutually beneficial and acceptable. That's the foundation of every long-term cooperation.

Anonymous said...

It is likely that CCP would intervene if you organized a large group of people to suicide-gank hisec carebears. For the same reason that Blizzard intervened when you came up with a way to kick the M&S out of battlegrounds -- it attacks their revenue stream.

Anonymous said...

"About the "stress JOINING the alliance; not using it to further your own goals." Do you think that any alliance leaders are idiots who'd fall for a "I just want to be one of you" speech?
Don't you think that a honest "I want X and I think it can be aligned by your goals, so we would both benefit if we'd act together" would go better?"

now you make me write a crazy wall of text^^

Once upon a time there was a corporation in TEST, called Element 115.

They had a very young and ambitious CEO who dreamed big and thought joining TEST would be a great idea to further his corporation's goals (allowing them grow faster and get more of their members into supercaps).

Element 115 was very supercap-heavy at a time when TEST had even less supers than it has now, they had the capability to build titans for TEST and thus they were given a constellation in Fountain.

However, E115 did not try to integrate with the alliance culture - they felt that by virtue of their supercaps they already contributed more than most and emphasized their corporation identity over the alliance (didn't post much on test forums and if they did the posts were often bad, retained their corporation TS server, most member didn't join any of the squads that are supposed to be your primary social group in TEST, had poor participation in subcap fleets, ...).

The only other corporation in TEST they had friendly ties to was Metanoia who were had similar concerns about integrating into TEST.

Predictably the relation between E115 and TEST soon turned sour. TEST leadership was unhappy at E115's refusal to dissolve into the alliance and (rightly) had the impression that E115 was using TEST for their own goals instead of wanting to be a long-term part of it.
E115 was unhappy about TEST because they felt they weren't treated with the respect they deserved ("kick E115" became zulu squad's standard reply on forums and jabber to anything E115-related) but consoled themselves with the thought TEST could simply not afford to lose the E115 supercapitals and its supercap production capability.

Then E115 leadership was made aware of rumors that Montolio was planning to kick the corporation from TEST without warning. In a flurry of panic they started to evacuate their assets from Fountain and called upon Metanoia for an emergency brainstorming meeting on their TeamSpeak server to determine the future of both corporations. Eventually a plan was made to get into contact with Raiden. in the hope of joining them.

Ultimately Metanoia became uneasy with the idea to leave for a hostile alliance without talking to TEST leadership at all - so they approached TEST alliance leadership and spilled the beans.
E115 was kicked from TEST instantly, their pilots were camped into stations, their POSes bubbled and reinforced and TEST tried to kill whatever E115 members/property it could. Metanoia received some public praise for their behavior but were given to understand that they are not welcome in TEST any longer and left a few weeks later.

to fill in that rough outline with some details see (also read the comments): http://www.evenews24.com/2011/04/18/test-alliance-kickshunts-own-corp-after-plan-to-join-raidendot-is-discovered/

tl;dr don't join TEST unless you are ready to become a part of TEST (and I don't really see that happening with Gevlon anytime soon)

Gevlon said...

@Anonymous: so you think the problem was not posting on the forums or not hanging out on TS?

Not maybe the fact that they BETRAYED THE ALLIANCE AND WANTED TO JOIN THE ENEMY???

The starter problem was non-aligning goals: "allowing them grow faster and get more of their members into supercaps". None of their goals supported the alliance any way.

I'm not even sure if I want a corp. Maybe just a chat channel is enough, organizing those alliance (and allies) pilots who want help with building their supercaps.

killerbee said...

@Gevlon

I'm not even sure if I want a corp. Maybe just a chat channel is enough, organizing those alliance (and allies) pilots who want help with building their supercaps.

seems to contradict what you were saying in this post, which was that an individual cannot be trusted by the whole, but a group can be (i.e. your policeman is corrupt but the police force is OK)

I do think logistics is going to be your 2nd hardest (feeding a supercap producing machine is a very, VERY hungry child) and politics being the first (Don't kill my CSAAs!)

The other thing that comes to mind is the One True Empire. Null sec alliances band together to increase their numbers for fighting one another, but a war against the high-sec carebears? Where is the fun in that for a fighter? If anything, the band of merry nullers would split into two / three factions and duel it out, merely out of sheer boredom.

I do hope you succeed in your venture, but even with your immense fleet of super caps, w/o the pilots to fly & utilize them (again, another problem you will run into) this will simply be another fleet that'll sit and collect dust

Gevlon said...

@Killerbee: yes, it contradicts because it's maybe better. You can most trust yourself. The existing alliance corps do the recruiting, accepting only players based on their existing policy while I do the trading-training.

Khanh'rhh said...

Gevlon - has it occurred to you that the people you arrogantly claim you will join and train might already know more than you?

The CFC has gone way, way beyond "buy low, sell high" into "make it low, buy it, make it high, sell it" which often leans on subtle parts of a production chain, or goes a level deeper and creates a new bottleneck where it didn't already exist in order to exploit the market for 4 digit (1000%+) margins.

Sorry to say but your central premise here is wrong. Major alliances already have so many supercaps that they literally have no use for the number they have, so I don't know why you think your offer to join and build more is really going to do anything?

People don't toss around SC fleets at the moment as there's nothing to use the numbers they have for.

More commonly, subcaps are used against caps because Alphafleet will make very very short work of carriers, you don't need dreads.

You need to actually get involved in fleet PVP (or do more research) before you can turn around and start telling people what they need.

You will start life in nullsec as Drake #564 because you're unable to offer anything of value to organisations who turn over 30trillion on the markets each month. You just don't see this yet as you're viewing it from highsec and theorycrafting.

If you don't see the problem in theorycrafting then I only have to refer you to your Titan with warp disruptors in the mids.

Hivemind said...

Questions:
> What's in it for the alliance hosting your corp? If they can accommodate you they must also have the logistics to build their own supers, if they aren't doing it already. Most alliances have experienced traders who could teach their members to trade as you're offering, not to mention that you're already doing it for free on this blog and as you've shown it isn't very hard to get into. You've already said that there's no reason for the alliance to expect your new supercap pilots to join them and you're refusing to pay any fees or most likely participate in any ops not related to your own systems. Put that another way, you're asking to get preferential treatment over every other corp in the alliance, fostering resentment from the rest of their members. By putting down CSAAs you also make their space a much jucier target, especially given your hatedom on here. What are you offering that makes it worth it for an alliance to take you in spite of what I've just typed? Would you compromise on one of the points above and pay fees, or provide pilots? Would you offer the alliance use of your supercap production facilities and blueprints?
> Defence; you've mentioned stationing caps in cynojammed systems, and jamming everywhere within 5 jumps (which incidentally has a pretty high pricetag - you've got to be looking at about 15 systems or more to cover that, which at 20mil/system/day is 300mil/day, for about 45 days to build a Titan = 13.5bn, >10% of the Titan's hull cost). You haven't mentioned how those caps are going to get manned, or whether you're expecting the alliance to provide subcap support or similar (as others have pointed out, HACs, Tech 3 ships and the like can largely ignore capital opponents) in which case that needs to be added to the count against you in the point above. If you're not expecting the alliance to field subcaps, who will fly them? How will the traders - presumably on trade characters in hisec and not in this corp/alliance - know when they're needed in null? And where are they going to be keeping these caps in all those cyno jammed systems? They won't all have stations.
> Logistics; how will you turn hundreds of billions of ISK into supercapital ships? You'd need to cash your ISK into raw materials or capital components and get those to your production POS(es). Are you going to have people in your corp to do the periodic bursts of mineral compression, component construction and hauling needed to turn cash into hulls? Are you going to outsource it to the alliance? Hire characters into the corp for those purposes when you need them?
> Timescale; It took you about 6 months to bring your net worth equal to a titan, it also takes about that long or longer to train a new character for one. Given that you're envisioning a supercap building corp that specifically looks for people who have both the ISK and the desire to have their own personal supercap, how will you get enough demand to make it worth doing? Do you expect a lot of players to appear out of nowhere who are already at the same position you are and want in on this? If so, what evidence do you have for this? If not, where are you hoping to get the corp to and where are you hoping to get the members to? Found it now, 6 months later when members have the capital and the skills, move to null? Found it and join an alliance now, recruit members from them and do nothing involving supercap production for the next 6 months?
> Makeup; Are you making a corp full of supercap pilot alts of traders, who will be elsewhere trading in the meantime? Are you making a corp for traders so you can directly interact with the people you're teaching, which will also have a wing of cap/supercap alts belonging to those traders? Are there going to be dedicated hauler/industrialist characters there to handle the actual building of supercaps, or will those also be traders/traders' alts?

Hivemind said...

In addition to the questions I'd like to point out a minor issue; you don't have the ISK to buy a titan now. You have net worth equal to a titan. Unless you've done something incredibly stupid you've presumably still got about 90% of your capital tied up in sell orders and escrow for buy orders. I doubt you could liquidate everything at 100% of its value in a hurry, and I'm sure you wouldn't want to trade everything in for a titan and start from scratch on making it back instead of keeping the ISK working for you anyway.

Anonymous said...

Gevlon, why do you think there is something that you can train them? Your method and operations may be summarized in three sentences:

1. Find an item with price gap between buy and sell and with high volume, preferable with high price
2. Cut 0.01 players with lowering your margins
3. Haul between hubs

Where is the teaching part?? An alliance for repeating point 1-3 all day?

Anonymous said...

You're going at this from the wrong end Gob.

The exact thing you don't need is inexperienced people with the wrong reflexes to be sitting in supers. They'll be more embarrassed by their killmails than by the dents in their wallets.

What you need, and need lots of, is henchmen. These are fairly expensive, and the capitalization barrier to making productive use of them can be high. Start out small with piracy. However, roll big with moon control.

CFC is doing a decent job of hoarding tech, but their rank and file has high turnover and they amount to slaves. Even with their numbers, they are still only 1% of the playerbase. The time is ripe for the next development of super corporations. Except this time, instead of an alliance farming its own members and allies/pets, they will be on the payroll.

Imagine how much more exciting EVE would be if corporations got bought and sold entirely? This is way more interesting than the hunter gatherer model. It will take more than billions to pull off though, probably trillions with the hurdles CCP has put in place.

Antivyris said...

I think the actual issue you have run into is evading you for a simple reason. It's also the reason most the people can't explain why you are 'wrong' and just say you are wrong.

The reason is social. It's very, very simple as well. There is only a single question.

1. Does the alliance want the author of Greedy Goblin?

That's as far as it goes. Whether you want it or not, you are already famous in EVE. You made X Bil in X time, more so than most in the same time. To the trading crowd, that's impressive. However, that's a giant target. You are a threat that they really do not want to get more experience. Currently, they are probably quite happy you are relegating yourself towards a nullsec block.

However, your blogger status also makes you a target. Add this to the other unfortunate fact, any alliance large enough to take your persona doesn't really need the super-caps as they can deploy the blob, and any alliance that needs your super caps cannot afford to have your persona as they quickly become prime targets for a wipeout. Or a scam.

My question is, why haven't you explored a third option? You've fallen into the trap. You've decided there are two spaces, Nullsec and Highsec. Perhaps not out-right, but that is what you are shaping the discussion toward. While you have an issue being Drake#341, I don't understand why you have no problem being AllianceTrader#46.

Perhaps a social idea here can make you understand your comment section of late. Your detractors are hoping you will continue, and either wish you to fail or know you will and will not supply ways out to farm 'tears' later. Your actual avid readers are hoping you'll do something more than what you propose, because let's face it, the 100b post is more exciting than this one.

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